Craps - the cliff notes

[fossil2k2]

So you talk about placing a bet behind the pass line after a number is given, but when does that bet pay out? or when do I lose it? what happens to the pass line bet after a number has been given?

When the black and white puck says "off" (it will most likely be resting near the don't come bar) you are free to place a pass line bet. Once a point is set by the shooter rolling a 4, 5, 6, 8, 8, or 10, the dealers will flip the puck over so it says "on" and will place it on the corresponding spot on the table. At this point you can place odds on your pass line bet. You can place pretty much any amount up to the posted maximum (most tables will specify 5x odds, which means if your pass line bet is $10, your max odds is $50). You can add to, or take away this bet at any time (just not while the shooter is about to roll the dice)

The pass line bet and the odds bet will be paid out once the shooter rolls the point again. The pass line bet gets paid out 1:1. The odds bet is paid out based on which point was hit. If the six or eight is rolled the payout is 6:5, five and nine are 3:2, and four and ten are 2:1. Note that because the payout on the five and nine are 3:2 you should always make your odds an even amount, dealers will say "even your odds". You do this because if you have a $25 (odd) odds bet the correct payout would be $37.50, and they aren't going to give you two quarters, they'd pay you $37, if your odds bet was $26 (even), you'd win $39. People say this is the best bet in the casino to make because these payouts are based on the true odds of rolling that number, there is no house advantage.

For example, you have a $10 dollar pass line bet, the point is a 6, you place a $50 dollar max odds bet, the six comes again, you win even money for your pass line bet and 60 dollars for your odds bet. Lets say you have $10 on the pass and the point is 4, you place a $50 odds bet, the four comes again, you win 10 for the pass line bet, and 100 for the odds bet.

Should a seven come out, you lose your pass line bet and any odds bet you had.

I'll give you a free lesson on Saturday.

[PorkChopExpress]

Well written man. A bet that a friend of mine would do a lot is wait for a 4 or a 10 to hit multiple times before a 7 and he lays the odds of the roller hitting a 7. Usually bets 50 to win 25 and I know the dice have no memory, but it is hard to hit multiple 4's or 10's before a 7

I have used this system on occasion, when it works, it's great, but you lose $50 every time the 4 (or 10) shows, so that can get expensive quickly if there is a constant stream of fours (or tens).

Here is a similar system for a super advanced player: Lay against the 4 (or 10) with $80 (plus $2 commission), and also place $44 inside. (That's a two-unit place bet on the numbers 5, 6, 8, and 9).

If the 7 shows, you lose the $44 in place bets, but win $40 for your lay bet. Result: net loss of $4. Essentially a push.
If the 5, 6, 8, or 9 shows, you win $14.
If the 4 (or 10) shows, you lose $80.
If anything else shows, it's a push.

The idea is to get two hits on all of the place bets from each shooter, and then you tell the dealers to pull down your bets. (Place bets and lay bets can be pulled off the table upon a player's request, unlike pass line or come bets.) In this system, out of the 36 rolls of the dice, you win on 18, push on 15, and lose on 3.

The kicker is, those 3 losing bets hit your wallet hard. Still this is an excellent system for an advanced player who has the discipline to tell the dealers to take down his bets, and make some decent money on a very choppy table.

PorkChop, If you play this system by the book and pull your bets after a 5, 6, 8 or 9 are hit twice how much are you really accumulating in winnings over the course of an hour? It seems like a very slow process if you win at all.

I'm still an amateur craps player and by no means a statistician so correct me if I'm wrong. If your place bets hit 6 times in a row you win 84 bucks, then if the next number is a 4 or 10 your lay bet is lost and you're ponying up 80 bucks to replace the bet (plus the juice). That being said you need the shooters to roll at least seven 5, 6, 8 or 9's before a 4 or 10, Like you said in your post, 18 combinations to win 3 to lose, or 6:1, not 7:1, so you're still fighting the odds.

Lets go with a worst case scenario, you put your bets out, the first roll is a 4 or a 10. So now you're out of pocket 86 (4 for the juice when you originally placed your lay bets, 80 to replace the lay, another 2 juice on the new lay). You need seven 5, 6, 8 or 9's to make 98 bucks with will put you a whopping 12 dollars in the black. If a 4 or a 10 hits before you're 7th place bet win, you're back into a deeper hole.

Fossil2k2 -

You're always "fighting the odds" in craps, or in any casino game. The house always has the edge - that's why they offer these games in the first place. If there was a foolproof way of making a profit, better men than me would have found it by now!

Consider what is known as "traditional" betting: Betting on the pass line, then placing the 6 and 8 when the point is established (let's say its a 9), and taking single odds. At a $10 table, that will cost you $44 ($10 for the pass line bet, $12 for the 6, $12 for the 8, and another $10 for odds.)

If the 6 shows, you win $14. (Statistically, this happens 5 of every 36 rolls of the dice.)
If the 8 shows, you win $14. (5 of 36)
If the 9 shows, you win $25. ($10 for the pass line bet, and then $15 odds.) (4 of 36)
If the 7 shows, you lose $44. (6 out of 36)
Anything else is a push.

Therefore, even in traditional betting, you "win" on 14 rolls of the dice, push on 16, and lose on 6. The reason why the the "No 4 (or 10)" system is attractive is because you have reduced your possiblity of losing from 6 rolls out of 36 in traditional betting, to only 3 out of 36 PLUS given yourself a few more chances to win. Imagine that. Everyone else is freaking out over the 7 showing, and you don't even care! But, as you've correctly noted, you must put up a lot more money at risk to lose in one shot for that privilege.

Now, I'm not saying this system is foolproof by any means or the "best" one out there. It's not - it also just may not appeal to you - and that's fine. Sometimes, I've gone to play this system, laid down all my bets, and been hit with three rolls of 4 IN A ROW. It sucks, but it can happen with this or any other betting method. I've also been playing traditional "pass line" betting, walked up to a table and had the next eight rolls be: point, 7, point, 7, point, 7, point, 7. When that happens, you'll feel like the biggest idiot in the world, and curse yourself for not sitting down to play poker instead.

As far as how many times you can expect to hit the place numbers, in an hour, there's just no rhyme or reason. On the other side of the coin, I've played this system where I didn't see a 4 or 10 for over three hours, and gone around and won $28 from each shooter several times around a packed table, and walked away up with enough to cover multiple bottles later that night. Is playing this way a grind? Yes, definitely - but it can be very profitable if the table is running right, and you can stomach it.

[sbrese]

good write up

[fossil2k2]

I couldn't muster the willpower to play PorkChops method this past weekend in Vegas. I played the most at MGM (where I stayed). I tested the waters at Bellagio and Aria after we left the clubs, I didn't last more than a few minutes at each table.

My best success was at Encore late Saturday night after XS let out. I was lucky enough to have a shooter roll for a solid 45 minutes, made about 5 times what I started with. Later that morning back at MGM I had a 30 min roll myself. When the tables were hot my general strategy was pass line bet with max odds if on a inside point, place the 6 & 8 and play up to two come bets with odds.

I did notice that Vegas craps have some differences from where I normally gamble in CT. Most tables are 3-4-5 odds tables, where I usually play everything is 5x odds. I'd never heard of the "All's" before (All Small, All Tall and All or Nothing). Lastly, in CT all the hard ways are off coming out unless you say you're working, in Vegas it's the opposite.

A couple pieces of superstition that I subscribe to...

1) Never walk up to a table that has more than a couple open spots. I never do well if it's less than three people at the table. I do best when I squeeze into a busy table.
2) Don't join the game or buy chips when the puck is on. I hate when people hear all the hooting and hollering and people flock and ruin the pace of the game by throwing cash on the table.
3) When shooting, act like you give two shits. Aim for a corner where there aren't so many chips on the felt. I can't stand it when people just grab the dice and whip them down the table. It'll inevitably nail a stack of chips, make a mess, and seven out. "hit the money, dice will land funny"

[B-Dub15]

3) When shooting, act like you give two shits. Aim for a corner where there aren't so many chips on the felt. I can't stand it when people just grab the dice and whip them down the table. It'll inevitably nail a stack of chips, make a mess, and seven out. "hit the money, dice will land funny"

u

Best quote! Lol. Thanks Fossil

[SCOttawa]

wow,great write up, thank you!

[Rswa99a]

Awesome write up. now i dont have to look like a rookie! lol

[Ghost7]

Thanks for this guide on craps. I've only tried it once and was as far as your Phase 2. Knew enough to bet and than place odds. The table was alot of fun. Think maybe next trip will give it another go.

[DA_MOSS]

Nicely laid out! Thanks

[kp3205]

Great write up and follow up/advanced suggestions by others. Def will try the basic game plan and see how it goes. Never got it and was always resistant to trying that table.

[msavard]

Glad you guys are finding the thread useful!

As always, ask any questions and I'll try to help.

[fossil2k2]

Another suggestion that came to mind... For those who haven't played and want to learn it probably would be a good idea to download a craps app on your smartphone or tablet. I killed an hour or two on the plane ride to Vegas last month playing on my iPad. There are a few decent apps out there. Just play around with it and I'm sure you'll pick up what's happening.

[MikeG3714]

Does anyone know what sort of odds you can back up on the pass line? I haven't played in a while and I cannot remember if most casinos offer x2 or x4.

[Jhaulotte]

Most casinos offer double odds up to 5x, but there are places that offer more. Places like casino royale offer up to 100x odds

[jadefire5457]

Does anyone know what sort of odds you can back up on the pass line? I haven't played in a while and I cannot remember if most casinos offer x2 or x4.

Most strip casinos are 3x4x5x. Meaning, if you bet $10 while the button is off... and then the shooter rolls a 4 or a 10 on the come out roll... you could put 5x odds ($50) behind your pass line bet. If the shooter had rolled a 5 or a 9, you could put 4X odds ($40) and if the shooter had rolled a 6 or an 8, you would only be able to put 3x odds ($30).

Thus, the statistically most likely rolls (6 and 8) have the lowest odds you can place. Vice versa with the 4 and the 10.